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Forums :: Blog World :: Peter Tessier: Chevy's Analtyics- Fallout from the Weekend
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Peter Tessier
Joined: 10.11.2011

Apr 21 @ 1:15 PM ET
Peter Tessier: Chevy's Analtyics- Fallout from the Weekend Thoughts on the fall out from Ed Tait's piece on hockey analytics and what many thought of Chevy.
WJHT-PCHT
Location: Winnipeg/San Tan Valley
Joined: 04.08.2013

Apr 21 @ 2:10 PM ET
I find it amusing that the adv stats crowd say adv stats are just 1 tool in player evaluation but use it as their first and main stat to crucify a player. I like looking at advanced stats but I'm on the other end of the spectrum as far as the only way to evaluate a player. I don't need to look at Stuart's Corsi to see he handles the puck like a hand grenade. When it comes to the Jets the fact of the matter is we have the wrong, Stuart, wrong Kane, wrong Jokinen and a bunch of wrong Ladd's ... sorry, I couldn't resist.
clematrix
Joined: 01.08.2014

Apr 21 @ 2:14 PM ET
What I took from Chevy's quote is that the actual information that stats like Corsi or Fenwick will tell you isn't really that valuable most of the time. Or at least it doesn't tell you anything more valuable than what you already know from watching a game play out and studying tape after. I thought it was more that he was suggesting that shots-based stats really oversimplify the game from his standpoint so that data is of limited use.

Using Stewart as an example, he isn't the fastest player on the ice so if a team's matching lines up against the Jets, there's a good chance that if possible they want to put some speed on that wing and maybe even stretch things out a bit more on their breakouts to try and take advantage of this. For an extreme case, in response Winnipeg could decide to bias Stewart's starts to be more heavily weighted to being on their own side of centre so there's less chance of guys being able to gain much speed and beat him. Depending on the score and if the other team adjusts their matchups, this may change. The stats can help paint a picture of what happened during the game but you lose all context as to why things went the way they did, you just get the net results. They definitely have some value but I suspect Chevy believes they provide too limited information to be of huge value. So they may look at them but they aren't going to be making any major decisions based on them. I personally find them somewhat interesting for games I didn't get to watch because they can tell you more about what happened than just checking game summaries.
Peter Tessier
Joined: 10.11.2011

Apr 21 @ 3:44 PM ET
What I took from Chevy's quote is that the actual information that stats like Corsi or Fenwick will tell you isn't really that valuable most of the time. Or at least it doesn't tell you anything more valuable than what you already know from watching a game play out and studying tape after. I thought it was more that he was suggesting that shots-based stats really oversimplify the game from his standpoint so that data is of limited use.

Using Stewart as an example, he isn't the fastest player on the ice so if a team's matching lines up against the Jets, there's a good chance that if possible they want to put some speed on that wing and maybe even stretch things out a bit more on their breakouts to try and take advantage of this. For an extreme case, in response Winnipeg could decide to bias Stewart's starts to be more heavily weighted to being on their own side of centre so there's less chance of guys being able to gain much speed and beat him. Depending on the score and if the other team adjusts their matchups, this may change. The stats can help paint a picture of what happened during the game but you lose all context as to why things went the way they did, you just get the net results. They definitely have some value but I suspect Chevy believes they provide too limited information to be of huge value. So they may look at them but they aren't going to be making any major decisions based on them. I personally find them somewhat interesting for games I didn't get to watch because they can tell you more about what happened than just checking game summaries.

- clematrix


One of the things I've learned from reading the work of stats people is the questions they ask are as important as the answer. I think the Stuart scenario is a great example. If coaches are keying in on Stuart- why? Why is Stu's coach letting him get keyed on?

What happens when Stuart is on the ice that leads to so many more blocked shots? Is it him who only goes to block them or is something else happening? We have Shiftchart to see who is being shifted with who and such as well so we can see how things appears as players play.

What I think is being overlooked by many with stats is we do not know how teams weight them in value towards a player's total value. If a guy like Burmistrov is such a possession monster and possession is good why is every effort to retain him not made? I would answer that stats don't tell the whole story with him and are only one part of the variables in his overall value.

The other thing with information is what part of it from a macro level do you set your attention threshold at for any particular stat? For a contract like Stu's is he being paid to stay here or being paid to perform. I'm thinking it's more the latter as he got a raise, got term yet is entering the decline period of his game. That's fine but with the volume of info out there teams may have to be a little more transparent on things. Not much but a bit more.
Grinder6
Location: MB
Joined: 09.15.2013

Apr 21 @ 5:47 PM ET
I am new to this advanced stats witchcraft but I do think it has merit. It makes sense that the best teams in the league also have the best puck possession.

Thing is, there can be no "Moneyball"story in the NHL if every GM knows what the other guy is looking at. If everyone has access to the same advanced stats, everyone should be equal, so scouting, drafting and developing become all the more important. It may also increase the value of signing UFAs.

As far as Stuart goes, I think they signed him mostly because he's one of the few Jets who has the balls to call out his teammates. hey maybe they could invent a new stat, call it the Messier Factor: times player X yells at his teamates : increased level of effort.
Peter Tessier
Joined: 10.11.2011

Apr 22 @ 9:20 AM ET
I am new to this advanced stats witchcraft but I do think it has merit. It makes sense that the best teams in the league also have the best puck possession.

Thing is, there can be no "Moneyball"story in the NHL if every GM knows what the other guy is looking at. If everyone has access to the same advanced stats, everyone should be equal, so scouting, drafting and developing become all the more important. It may also increase the value of signing UFAs.

As far as Stuart goes, I think they signed him mostly because he's one of the few Jets who has the balls to call out his teammates. hey maybe they could invent a new stat, call it the Messier Factor: times player X yells at his teamates : increased level of effort.

- Grinder6


If Stu's value is to be more than what's on the ice- I get it. Maybe I don't spend that $$ but I understand it. However let's all be honest why. Stu deserves expectations that match his playing reality.
TheUltimateJet
Joined: 07.16.2013

Apr 22 @ 4:18 PM ET
Hossa and Sharp have had two of the best corsi numbers over the last few years. Its not surprising that Chicago has 2 Stanley Cups in the last 4. Maybe we can ask Chevy how he would explain that!